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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 22, 2009 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Ok, I guess I'm going to make myself unpopular here, and stir up some controversy, but I am really curious as to why a great majority of deadheads really hate Brent?

I was born too late to have seen Pigpen, Keith or TC and Brent was a solid part of the band when I saw them. I didn't like all his songs but thought he did some lovely harmonies with Jerry and added some great sound to certain songs. Loved the harpsichord on China Doll for example.

Now, please don't get me wrong - I crave the sounds before Brent - but more due to Jerry, Phil, the great jams and song selection and less to do with the actual keyboard playing ... so

Do you dislike Brent because he was incapable as a musician, because (in your opinion) he didn't fit in with the rest of the boys or because you just compare his style to that of Pig, Keith or TC (who you had seen live and loved)?

The great old jamming days seem to have ended by the early 80s but was this due to Brents' arrival or because the band itself chose this direction - perhaps trying to become more upstream and commercial?

Again, I am curious. I don't have a favourite Dead keyboardist - they were all very different with great moments and not so great ones and the music also changed over the years. Brent was certainly not Pig or Keith but I think he fitted in with the music they were playing at the time.

I remember seeing my last ever GD shows in Europe 1990 with Bruce Hornsby and Vince and many old time deadheads were all excited to hear the band without Brent. I never really warmed up to Bruce or Vince but I contribute that to the fact that I compared them to what I knew and was accustomed to (from Brent) - and it was different.

Is this perhaps the same explanation for the Brent haters ...

... he did it differently?

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent? THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE DEAD EVER HAD

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1990-07-22.sbd.walker-scotton.miller.95870.sbeok.flac16 Check out the Far From Me from this show Brent is so emotional and Jerry makes the guitar cry in harmony with Brent's keys....BY FAR THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE GRATEFUL DEAD EVER PLAYED WITHhttp://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=282572



This post was modified by RBNW....new and improved! on 2009-12-22 22:06:58

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent? THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE DEAD EVER HAD

Awesome. "my LAST F'ING SONG FOR YOU B*TCH!!".

Call me a Touchhead, but I think that's killer!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 22, 2009 6:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent? THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE DEAD EVER HAD

" call me a touchhead"

Touch head! : )

Come on! That song sucks. OOH OOH? how the F does Brent get a pass but poor Bob gets constantly trashed.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 23, 2009 10:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent? THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE DEAD EVER HAD

"Awesome. "my LAST F'ING SONG FOR YOU B*TCH!!."

The wife got tired of those constant tours and went her own way. Brent's personal life was falling apart and four days later he died from an overdose of drugs. Suicide???

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 24, 2009 1:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent? THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE DEAD EVER HAD

...and now he's dead. What's your point? I can't like the way he belted out that song with such raw emotion??

I also like many of the very late versions of So Many Roads, as Jerry's personal life was in the dumper. Sorry.

These guys were beautiful artists and, as you know, personal struggle makes for great art. Seems artist who lack "organic obstacles" in their lives create their own. Not my fault. You have rubber-necked just as many rock-n-roll car-wrecks as I have. Let's call it even.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent? THE BEST KEYBOARD PLAYER THE DEAD EVER HAD

i replayed that part several times over and over ...loving it more and more each time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Poster: pequastogy Date: Dec 24, 2009 6:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Got on the bus in 82. We went to the shows for the same reason everybody from the beginning went to the shows:to catch big energy/to give big energy and to get some magic from the band. Brent's harmonies with bobby and jerry were a zillion fold better than what preceded it, even though at this stage jerry's voice wasn't as pretty.

To say there wasn't big jams beyond 79 is plain ridiculous. I was there for many of them.

One last thing for all you geezers:when I was a boy things were better. We worked harder. We walked to school uphill in both directions. The kids of today....yadda yadda yadda

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2009 1:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

As one of the "early era" representatives, I can say that I couldn't evaluate Brent's playing any better than I can Vince's or TC's...so, I defn do not "hate" Brent on that front...it happens that he was along for the ride in the period during which I departed, 82, but that was just happenstance as I attribute the "decline" (as I see it) to much bigger forces than the current keybd player.

That said, when asked to listen to tunes he sang, via my sister since she cont'd well thru the 80s, I must say I do not care for his voice...I may actually "hate" his voice.

It was mentioned long ago, and I took a lot of flak for it, but it reminded me of the Doobie Bros...some said it was just because of his beard and hair. I dunno...but, again, his voice did put me off. Big time.

Playing, I actually liked him the last few yrs I was going (79 and 80, eg; he didn't sing much at all then though).

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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I think there were 2 tunes of his that I somewhat liked - not because of his singing - but because they were grooving and Jerry liked them. Jerry jammed! There were other songs where Jerry basically left the stage. No I wasn't terribly fond of his songs - but I thought he playing was nice.

I first saw the Dead in 82/83 and agree that Brent wasn't singing half as much as in 89/90 but apart from 'his' songs - I always thought his harmonies were quite good.

This post was modified by jessandra on 2009-12-22 22:00:01

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Yep, we actually welcomed that...in the few yrs I saw him, he added to that nicely, and as SDH notes, not that I want to restart the "Donna bashing thread", that was a good fit for the boys.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2009 1:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

"If I have to listen to "Jah Mo Be There" one more time, I'm going to Jah Mo burn this place to the ground"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqMTkJjeqbI

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Nice, SDH! I forgot about that lamentable song, but I like me a little Michael McDonald now & then! He was a perfect complement to many of the Steely Dan songs, and I even like his "It Keeps You Running" with the Doobies (uh oh, setting myself up for ridicule). So, WT's comparison of Brent to DB's was no dig to me.

If you ever doubt Jerry's affinity for Brent, check out NFA from Truckin' to Buffalo DVD... you can see pure joy in Jerry's eyes as they trade solos.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

check Jerry and Brent trading off during the jam in this Shakedown Street....its priceless http://www.archive.org/details/gd82-04-06.sbd-patched.wiley.16785.sbeok.shnf

This post was modified by RBNW....new and improved! on 2009-12-22 22:30:06

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Poster: clashcity Date: Dec 22, 2009 5:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

That whole show is priceless. One of my favorites from the post-hiatus years.

Too bad there isn't a great source of the show around when many shows from that tour have great sounding boards.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

True enough, CCD...true enough. At the time, though, at least for us in the late 70s, it seemed "odd" if you follow, for the boys...on the heels of Shakedown, it seemed they were changing, and somehow, I guess even though I was pure mid 70s lover of the DEAD then, it seemed to be a new direction??? We even termed it "Doobie Dead Shit" and one and all in the Bay Area knew what you meant by that...hope that doesn't get me in trouble; hey, I didn't come up with it.

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Thanks for the historical context, WT - I had no idea that the Doob reference (clearly intended as a jibe) really caught hold, at least temporarily, when Brent joined. He did usher in a new sound, so I can see that it might cause some angst at first. Come to think of it, I can only imagine what people thought when they saw the Go To Heaven album cover - it must have seemed to confirm suspicions that Brent was somehow leading them down a less admirable path!

Me.... I love Brent, so of course I "know" that all of those late 70's worries were unfounded :-)

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Perfect example. That moment speaks volumes for the chemistry (both musically and pharmacologically) between the two. Although I'm thinking they could have split off and formed their own group, The Enablers.

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Too funny! By the way, what are you drinking tonight? Just kidding, folks....

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Have heard the Brent, Michael McDonald comparisons before.
They are pretty well spot on. I must like Brent because I like the Doobie brothers. Or is it, I like the Doobie Brothers because I like Brent??? So confusing!! Either way, it's all good...cause I like 'em both.

No Brent hater here...now, T.C., that's a whole other story!!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Wait a minute...do you mean to tell me that...? Ha, well, read my other post to CCD. Loved "blackwater" or whatever it's called.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 22, 2009 1:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I don't hate Brent

I can say I never liked any of his 'bathroom break' tunes though.

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 22, 2009 1:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I vote - Love Brent! His f-bombs are waaaay cooler than Bobby's.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 22, 2009 1:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

i 2nd that!!!!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 22, 2009 6:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I would say the majority of fans that I know seem to like his era the best

I don't hate him I just don't like his over all contributions to the band but that's the bands fault as much as his if they did right? His songs are cheesy and while a talented musician overall i prefer keys to heavy handed synthesizer. Just dont care for the sound. But hate is really a lame thing to feel for a musician just because you dont like their music - for instance I can't stand the music of Sammy Hagar and Garth Brooks but they seem to be pretty decent folks, Sammy in particular would be a blast to hang with it seems

I ran into Brent once. Felt sorry for the guy. Total Fubar'd with his parnanoia and self consciousness written all over him.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I don't hate Brent either. I just have found over the 4 or so years that i have been listening to shows here, I prefer the 70s and 60s to the 80s. This was not the case when i got here (we did a thread about this one time discussing if or how this place has changed your dead listening habits). I was initially listening to the 80s because brent was the best keyboard player that i saw in person and all the tapes I had were from the '80s. In fact I saw one of his last shows in the summer of '90 and he was on fire, so much so that Jerry kept looking his way and smiling. I just found that like SDH I don't really like his keyboard sound from '79 to about '81 (the toy piano era) and after that I simply prefer the band better in the keith and pig years (still in that order WT) than the brent years.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2009 7:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Harrump....order, smorder.

Hey, notice the interesting emergence of those 80s fans here? I guess I could have told you who was in the group, but it's great to see them all speak up, eh? And, it does explain how sometimes the early era crankers, like me, do smother this place in the early era to their chagrin, methinks? No wonder peeps are sometimes a bit PO'd over the posting patterns hereabouts.

What I also noticed is that even among those that like the 80s there is variation; take some that mention 81 as a great year, and then you and SDH mention that was the time that you thought wasn't as good...point being, we early era types do the same thing, and we can go back and forth about this yr or that, but we actually don't see much posted here from folks about these subtle diff's in the 80s, much less the 90s.

Interesting.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 22, 2009 7:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I like early era and even I can't deal with your smothering 6-14-68 St. Stephen talk!!!

All kidding aside, i think i mentioned to you one time that it is easier to explain that when one considers '65-71 since the sound was changing so much from year to year or even within a year (e.g. Winter>Fall '68) that it is not surprising that people might like one sound better than the other. Not sure that was as much the case for the '80s. It was the only decade without line up changes right? So maybe some could break it down to pre-coma and post-coma but I am not sure that was as much a sound change as a consistency change.

As for '81, I understand why people like that year. Actually I think the band was playing really well as Brent was well integrated and Jerry was playing well and doing so in a consistent fashion. So its not a matter of bad playing, I am just not that found of Brent's early sound. I also didn't like Bob screwing with Truckin' (the whistle in the beginning and the sex change line) but that's another story. I believe our buddy Cliff attended the show at Barton that year (5-16-81) and even he would tell you that it was a really good show. And while I am throwing your idols under the bus, Arbuthnot is also quite fond of May '81.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 22, 2009 8:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

"we actually don't see much posted here from folks about these subtle diff's in the 80s, much less the 90s."

Well you early people still have some splainin' to do about the loss of The Eleven from the rotation. That created a huge hole that was eventually filled by I Will Take You Home. So it's really the fault of the older heads.

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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 23, 2009 4:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Dearest WT,

I'd just like to point out that because some of us saw 80s shows doesn't mean we are 80s fans. I would have loved to have been born 15 years earlier just to have been able to see them in the late 60s and 70s but, alas, maybe I should just be thankful to have been able to see them at all. Gosh - I'd almost be 60 now :-( !!!

Part of my inspiration of continuing to go to shows through the mid to late 80s was always wishing and hoping that the boys would pull out something really special from the past. Never really happened except for a few mediocre exceptions. I never saw them after 1990 so I can't add any input there.

As for changes during the 80s. Well Jerry sure changed his sound in the late 80s. He had new toys, pedals and buttons and his guitar was suddenly a synthesizer or horn etc. I thought that sounded really cool at the beginning but I quickly became rather bored with it and returned to preferring his normal guitar sound and solos.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 23, 2009 6:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Oh yeah, I was referring more to the regulars here that are fans of latter periods, but til threads like this one, they don't post as much on "their" time period...EG, most everyone here, cept Dan Healy I suppose, has read about me and 12-29 and 6-14 and 10-12 from 1968, or 9-19-70, so many times that they throw them into posts exchanges with me without having to think about it whatsoever (note elb's ref below)...and, to give them credit, they are perhaps more diverse in liking shows from all time periods, and might chime in on an 88 show as often as a 68 one.

Really it was just my observation that if someone did an analysis of all posts, I'd be happy since it really does seem to be biased toward the early era...not that I am saying this statistical support suggests I have always been right, but you get the idea; whether I am or not, I can understand why they might be a bit irritable now and again.

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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I also prefer the band pre 80's and pre Brent - but again it was the song selections and the mega jams. I honestly pay little attention to the keyboards unless they are exceptional or horribly present in a recording.

I don't even think of Pig as a keyboardist - I just want to hear his vocals! I originally didn't pay much attention to Keith because I hated Donna - but in the meantime I have found some great Keith shows

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I'll start this by saying right off the bat I don't hate Brent. As a back up vocalist he was a huge improvement over the resident cat flagellator. Great pipes. Also, his Hammond B3 really fleshed out some tunes in ways Keith just couldn't (one of the things that Jerr was really looking for in a new keyboard player).
That said, I do agree that his electric keyboard sound, especially in the early years was absolutely horrendous with the terms "circus organ" or "organ grinder" seeming most apropos. Half the time I kept expecting a monkey to jump on his shoulder and beg for change.

organ-grinder-and-monkey.jpg
From My Pictures


Oh, and don't get me started on his tunes. Good lord. Maybe some were OK, but...jeez...I mean...wow...just listen to them.

Overall, though, his strengths far outweighed his weakenesses. When ever he cranked up the Hammond through the big Leslie stacks, I always got shivers.

This post was modified by SomeDarkHollow on 2009-12-22 22:07:33

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 22, 2009 4:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Brent was a junkie too!

I dont hate Brent (RIP), I just loathe the Grateful Dead as configured with him on keyboard(s).

And in spite of that annoying kiddie piano sound of his, I think he was a decent musician, though certainly not as adept as Keith, at least untill the smack destroyed his skills as well...

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 22, 2009 8:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I don't like Brent's singing, his songs, his playing, or his sound. Other than that, he's okay.

As many people have praised, he used a much wider variety of sounds than Keith did. Cliched & obnoxious sounds, alas, but occasionally he could stumble on something appropriate, and he was at least inventive.
He also adds rhythm......which is not a small thing actually - the Dead themselves just said they wanted more "color" from a keyboard player after Keith left, but with Brent they got more interesting cross-rhythms going on in the songs. And as everyone says, they got a reliable harmonist who could sort of paper up the cracks, vocally, if you don't mind his dog-like howling.
His influence on the band's playing, no one's really talked about....they gave him a lot of room. Of course by the '80s, this was a nearly-mummified band of compromisers, but Jerry at least must have found him musically interesting & enjoyed playing off him. Brent fans might especially like the Europe '81 tour, which due to poor mixing sounds on tape like the Brent & Jerry Show....

By the '80s the music is less compelling to me than it had been, but your question is interesting:

"The great old jamming days seem to have ended by the early 80s but was this due to Brents' arrival or because the band itself chose this direction - perhaps trying to become more upstream and commercial?"

Not due to Brent, I'm sure. He could improvise - in fact, he was much more upfront than Keith was - Keith preferred to be more of a background player, so you rarely find a show where he dominates - but with Brent, you won't find too many shows where he's hiding in a corner. Quite often, he's taking the lead in the jams - and there was many a show where Garcia noodled off into silence & retreated early for the drum-break, leaving Brent open to take a predrums space-jam with Weir....

Actually, as far as big jams, you can find a huge difference between '79 and the following years - right after Brent joined, the band are clearly interested in extending the jams and getting really spacy. Suddenly in '80 there's a complete turnabout into "tight & short" shows. By early '81 they'd loosened up and were getting into longer jams & spaces again - but anyway I have to think they were seeking the "upstream & commercial" audience that they in fact found....

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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 23, 2009 12:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Well the upstream and commercial audience they found - was the reason I stopped touring after 87!

I found the scene became ugly and the east coast shows were filled with young and aggresive drunks. Kids just going to shows to test out drugs and party without a clue or any respect for the music.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 23, 2009 6:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the "parking lot"???

That's something I babbled on about a number of times here, but for me, it came even earlier...I noticed a significant downturn in the crowd with the move from Winterland to Oakland (hmmm, only 15 mi to the East I suppose!), and by 82 was not at all into the "scene".

What I find interesting is that many folks here have commented on the "parking lot scene" as a place of good times, burritos, cheese samwiches, and other comical items and personalities...I think I missed it entirely. In SF, there was NO parking lot since you parked somewhere more or less on your own, and went to the show...peeps met in line, and such, but until shows moved to Oak, there wasn't a recognized single Lot to work with. So, I guess my question is, was it the move to larger venues, and day time gigs, that allowed for the parking lot scene to develop? And was it strictly a mid 80s thru 95 phenomenon? Did it start earlier on the East Coast at sites with large, dedicated pk lots at the venue?

Or was I just being cheap and parking on side streets so that I missed the scene somewhere in SF?

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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 23, 2009 8:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

I guess I mainly remember the parking lot scene out east at the larger venues during the mid-eighties when we were still allowed to sell whatever we wanted. I sold bumper stickers in 85 and 86. In or after 1987 we weren't allowed to sell anything anymore which had a logo that even vaguely resembled a 'now licenced' GD graphic. Thus the casual and relaxed buying and selling turned into 'sell and run' before security caught you and confiscated your shirts or stickers. The food scene changed too and there was more beer being sold out east than good food. I think alot of the people selling food just got frustrated with certain parking lot conditions and didn't bother anymore.

85-87 - Redrocks, with the campground was the ultimate but places like Manor Downs, or the amphitheatre in KC or Oklahoma city had huge fields for parking where we could comfortably hang out all day. Ventura if you liked the dirt, Cal Expo, Laguna Seca etc.

New Years 84/85 at the SF Civic had a vending area in front of the City Hall (without parking of course) but lovely Miss Feinstein stopped that at future shows.

And then the HJK in Oakland where the vending was on the lawn and not in the parking lot. Oh and there was always the Burrito truck there from Berkeley and they were sooo good!

Speaking of which - it's time for dinner ;-)

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 24, 2009 6:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

I definitely recall the same uproar over shirts in and around 1987. On the flip side, though, I started noticing a more "professional" variety of shirt becoming available in the lots starting in late '85 or '86 (might have been before then but that's the first time I remember noticing). These shirts weren't the usual homey numbers being churned out by hippies looking to finance their following of the band- it was obvious they were coming from people whose sole purpose in being there was to sell shirts and turn a buck off the Dead. This obviously became a much more lucrative enterprise starting in '87. I think the honest-to-goodness heads who were just trying to pay for gas, tickets, etc, just wound up getting caught in the middle.

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Dec 23, 2009 7:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

A good example would be Buckeye Lake Music Center aka Legend Valley, You could wedge 75-80K in the venue,however at the last show in 94 law enforcement estimated the attendence at 450,000, thats alot of people without a ticket,

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 24, 2009 6:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

Just to echo Finster's post somewhat, I have read that the parking lot/camping/open market scene evolved out of the NYE runs at the Oakland Auditorium beginning somewhere around '79-'80. Can't vouch for it since I wasn't there; maybe someone who was can give more insight.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 24, 2009 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

Thanks one and all for the replies...I think it's clear then that (duh) the PLot Scene req'd a parking lot, and that until the shows were regularly at a venue (sports arenas and such) with designated lots, and large numbers of folks attending, there just wasn't a scene to participate in...

I do know that the night time shows at Oakland must have only had a very small PLot scene developing at the shows I attended in the late 70s, since we had to walk through it to get in, and I defn don't recall a big collection of vendors and the like...suppose it was bigger at shows that were in the afternoon? Or was that not the case? Dunno...

Defn didn't seem to be a PLot Scene assoc with Winterland shows however, as there wasn't a single large lot for it to "happen" in...

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Poster: skies Date: Dec 24, 2009 4:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

Interesting that you didn't really got into the parkinglots scenes at dead shows , W.Tell ! For sure for me , the parkinglots were a main attraction to give us time to meet people before and after the shows , eat, buy tyedyes ,toke and dose and meet all sorts of curious witty heads saying or wanting all sorts of things . No doubt the parkinlots , the shows ,and deadheads were all necessary ingredients to the whole scene for me !

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Poster: barongsong Date: Dec 23, 2009 8:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

That's an interesting question WT. When did the parking lot scene start I wonder. While there were certainly places in the later era that there was no huge central parking area {Hartford and Worcester come to mind} there was still the vending scene and Shakedown ST. The only places that didn't have much or any real parking lot scene in the later years was in the big cities like at MSG, or Rosmont in Chicago, or even Boston Garden where there wasn't much of a parking lot scene either. That, as you say, it wasn't really present at all in the 70's, makes me curious as to when it actually started.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Dec 23, 2009 2:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

I recall reading in I think it was McNally's book that the lot scene started at one of the bay area venues. I think it was during a New years run in '81 or '82. There was a park?? next to the venue where they allowed people to camp.
From these humble beginnings, the entire lot scene sprung up... All I know for sure was that by the time I got on the bus in '84, the lot scene was in full swing. Definitely lots of fun times in those days. especially in summer when the weather was nice!! The few shows I saw in the '90s when I had a "real" job and would just make it the venue around show time were just never the same.. The parking lot scene just made seeing the shows all that much better IMHO!

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Poster: barongsong Date: Dec 23, 2009 4:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: When and Where was the 'parking lot'???

Hey thanks, somehow I had the misconception that there had been some sort of Parking lot scene since the 70's.

I guess in the 70's it was just at places like Veneta that you could camp at, that any sort of communal scene occurred.

Yea saw the demise of the parking lot in the late 80's and after all the busts and hassles on 89 spring tour it was never really the same.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 24, 2009 6:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I think some of the Brent-hating (a sentiment I don't share, BTW) came from the fact that Brent was the first member to actually flat-out replace a previous member. Mickey dropped in and out, but his slot was never filled. TC didn't stay long enough to really carve out his own space. The Godchauxs joined while Pig was still performing (off and on), and Pig was really thought of more as a vocalist than a keyboardist anyway. So Brent was the first time a lot heads had the opportunity to say "I don't like this guy as much as the old guy". It also gave older heads an opportunity to snub newcomers (i.e., "you should have been here back in the day"). This dynamic isn't especially unique to the Dead or even to rock bands.

I think there's a general consensus that Brent arrived at the beginning of a period of change for the Dead, but that's different than saying he was the cause. He influenced certainly the new direction, but I really think it's a mistake for people to put their dislike of 80s Dead (if that's what they have) all on Brent. They were well down that road when he joined.

Now, "We Can Run", "Easy to Love You", etc...that's all on Brent. I like his vocals, but he definitely wrote some epic bathroom break anthems.

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Poster: cracked my spine Date: Dec 25, 2009 3:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I HATED 'Brent songs', didn't appreciate hearing them and more importantly felt they robbed me of many more Jerry tunes I would have heard over the years.

I still prefer Kieth's 71-74 chops over anything Brent brought but Brent's playing was way solid and he made several songs, ie: Shakedown, Dancing, Stranger etc.

Never cared for his voice, if he kept his yap shut and just played Jerry and Bobby's tunes I'd have no beef with him.

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I agree with RBNW on the keyboard player part, he was the best they ever had - including Keith, who would hold that title had he stayed awake more ...

I agree with SDH on the backing vocals - best 3rd (or 4th?) voice they ever had ...

What I hated were his lead vocal style and his songs. The first two songs were kind of okay, but it's all downhill from there.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Hey Jess..

I definitely DO NOT hate Brent. I liked Keith's pure piano sound better but I loved Brent's vocals and ability. Way better than Donna!

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Poster: jessandra Date: Dec 23, 2009 12:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Anyone could have sang better than Donna - but you've been through that subject enough here I'm sure ;-)

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 23, 2009 2:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Yes, there have been novel-length passages written on Donna's caterwauling...but I did think Brent's harmony background vocals were especially good and really made certain songs sound better because of it. He also was quite a good keyboardist....I only objected to some of the "candy"-sounding synth choices he made, whereas Keith usually had that great traditional acoustic piano sound.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Dec 22, 2009 2:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Brent was a decent keyboard player .He played with the band in an era where improvisational skill wasn't important so to compare his ability to Keith's is laughable.It was easy to hammer away on a stack of keyboards or synth's with the drug addled and bored version of the GD he played with,try playing the piano on Dark Star or Playin' with that beast that was the early 70's Dead.And I found his "back-up" vocals to be far to prominent.As for his compositions,they were just unlistenable.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 22, 2009 4:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

Agree on his songs...absolutely horrible...10,000 tons of steel? Yeesh.

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Poster: dizbuster Date: Dec 22, 2009 8:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

i like that song.........

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 23, 2009 2:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I repeat: yeesh.

How about "easy to love you"? I mean, don't these songs make you think of bad 80's synth bands? Bobby's just as guilty w/junk like "Picasso Moon", but the Brent songs were especially cheesy.

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Poster: dizbuster Date: Dec 23, 2009 7:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

i agree these were not the best songs from the catalogue and cheesy at worst. i might add that a lot of music in the 80's sucked for whatever reason. i myself love the jam at the end of picasso moon. i know i am in the minority on this though!

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 23, 2009 8:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

I actually like parts of the jam in "Victim or The Crime" so I can relate.

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Dec 22, 2009 5:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why does everyone hate Brent?

You are right, of course. Nothing Brent ever did comes close to Keith 72-74, and even into 76. Too bad about all those downers.